[X] and [R] RP Wake-up call

[Maverick]

@ZEB:

Thanks a lot for thinking with us and clearing this up m8. You obviously put a lot of effort in getting the RP thing perfectly crystal.

Your post offers a guideline for anyone who wants to commit to good RP and can in my opinion be attached to the Treaty Ripper made. As some kind of manual. I for one, can identify with each point you made in there and I believe that if everyone who wants to have some good RP around here will try to play to the guidelines you provided, RP will indeed take on a considerable bigger role on this server.

@The rest:

I made a post here asking you all to collect your ideas, so I could present them to an ADMIN or GUARDIAN.

I want to thank you all for your input on that. It's great to see so many players willing to provide them selfs and the others with a decent RP. And put in the effort of thinking about ideas to actually try and improve that. Your replies have made this thread to one of the most fruitful I have ever seen on this forum.
Again, hats off to yall.  =D>

However, in my opinion, Zeb's last post here provides us with all we need to get it done. Regardless of the fact that he represents authority on this server, he has provided us with a guideline that I think meets all of our 'demands'. Following this guide, will result in a considerable improvement of RP IMHO.
This is what my goal was with this thread. To get a clear guideline for anyone who wants to commit to the RP gameplay. So that makes my request to collect all of your ideas obsolete. My goal is reached.
Now it is up to us to breath some life into this. If we can do that, we will make a big step forward.

Nevertheless, please keep posting on this thread. Good ideas are always welcome. And there is always more room for improvement. And in all cases, it is always good to share thoughts about the matter.
So don't stop posting now. Keep sending in ideas, comments, stories and what more.

My thanks again to everyone who showed his enthusiasm about the matter.

Regards,

MAVERICK

[vladwulgar]

WW already said most of the things I wanted to say, but I would like to point out the problem of Server Rules which haven't been changed in a long time, and thus diminished the satisfaction of playing FL here. The Admins failed to see the trends on the Void and modify the server rules to fit those trends accordingly.
RP? What RP? Even when flying in my Rogue char I either stumble upon F1ers or people who spend the next 30 minutes of greening you with questions like "Why did you kill me?" "What did I do?" or "I'm blah blah blah". By the way, I don't mind the actual insults directed at me, I actually find it fun and "in the spirit of the game" because I never cared much for this G-rated thing that was imposed on the players. The game itself was rated: ESRB: T (Teen), USK: 12+, ELSPA: 15+, PEGI: 12+. You smuggle drugs, kill people and go to bars, so what's the problem with the language you use?

vlad

[Zebulon]

Can we please keep this on topic.  If you have something constructive to add please do so - if not, well you know the answer to that......

Believe it or not and whether you like it or not some people are actually offended by the use of foul language.  If you wish to let loose with some good old fashioned Anglo Saxon swear words between you and a mate then so be it.  In open chat and even in group chat it would be wise to choose your words carefully and watch what you say about others. Thats a whole other topic.

This is not a democracy. The people that placed this mod here for your enjoyment set certain parameters that they felt were appropriate.  When and if they feel it necessary to alter these then so be it.  Thats why an RP charter and this thread exist.  We cant make them change it, but we can sensibly organise something ourselves and then see if it catches on.  Believe me if the ADMINS see that this is a work in progress and that there is a good case to raise or remove the tax limit they will do so.

Dont forget that they have Real Lives too and actually work for a living elsewhere and dont have the luxury of living at home with parents who lift and carry for them, leaving them with hours to waste playing this game.  They also have families and other responsibilities.  They do this for "fun" and if it stops being fun for them this place will cease to exist at the flick of a switch.  You would do well to remember that.  They are also putting a lot of time into trying to make this a workable mod for YOUR enjoyment.  So back off and give them a break already.

Any RP suggestions to add?

[Watchwolf]

Great suggestions, Zeb ol' friend.

But I still feel rather insistent that the more lucrative trade routes need to be returned. The logic is simple.

In order to restore some RP for those who wish to play it, you need a field of play. What will attract traders? A few lucrative trade lanes that offer ridiculously high profits. What will attract pirates? Gluttonous traders getting fat at the most lucrative trade lanes. What will attract navy and bounty hunters? Pirates preying on traders getting fat at the most lucrative lanes. What will attract rogues? All the above congregating at the most lucrative trade lanes. So what's missing from this formula?

The most lucrative trade lanes.

Please. If anyone is listening, let's do this. Players who don't want to play RP can easily stay away from the RP battlefield. Just as people who prefer to avoid PvP avoid that particular battlefield.

If this is a server for everyone let's put something in it for everyone.

[Fracture]

All of these things, thoughts and comments are duly noted.

I will say this...
Balance is the one and only real challenge for any game that is as open ended as Freelancer.
"Staff Enforced Rules" are not needed in linier games with a pre-determined course of events.
Freelancer has no pre-determined way or method with which one must adhere.

Maybe the rules do get outdated and can become "in need" of change.
This is driven by mod balance more so than RP needs.

Role Play must be self governed by the players themselves.
The Admin's lack of Role Play involvement has nothing to do with dis-interest but rather the
virtual un-policeability of an open ended game server's overall direction.
What appears to be non-responsivness to or "Squashing" of peoples ideas or suggestions is
really the shear burnout of a mod creator and his associates.
Please know that the intentions are good.
Please know that even we have real life calling us away from driving the Voidmobile.
We rarely pass each other on the road anymore.
Inevitable I suppose.

The perfect set up is elusive to find and maintain.
Once found.. The perfect setup gets stale .. Or worse .. manipulated.
This commands change.
That very change has unpredictable outcome due to the dynamic way that players interface with our mod.

We have always tried very hard to make the Void the best Open Ended Server out there.
We watched many "Role Playing" servers die on the vine.

My respect goes out to those that can see the exponentially difficult task of "Us pleasing Everyone"
and who instead "Play in new and interesting ways" on their own.

We appreciate and need the constructive input of all of you.
We will do our best to please the majority.
And since we have never actually been able to please Everyone ... We have no illusions about somehow accomplishing that task now.

Thank you for coming here and playing the fun space game.
Have a nice day.

Frac

[Frobozz]

Good points Frac, and WW, and Zeb, all.

At the risk of sounding like the perpetual knowitall, I can tell you all that it's very VERY difficult to run a server which is both RP and open ended. Long long ago we had an optional RP system on Boston, which evolved over a long period and had much of the same problems as we now face here. A few lessons learned:

#1. RP is by tags. If you wear RP tags then you are in the RP system and by god you better act like it.

2. Players without tags should be considered non-RP unless specifically declared as IN the system.

I had a sign-in list in the Traders RP forum for those who were not tagged [T] but wished to be considered [T]raders for the purposes of RP. This helped bring folks into RP without requirement of making a new T tagged ship. This was the only exception to the tags=in, no tags=out.

3. RP rules and server rules are kept separate and non-conflicting. Server rules always take precedence.

4. RP rules and regs are best decided by RP players, then approved by admin and posted as the laws of RP.

5. Trade routes don't have to be mega profitable to be ROLE PLAY routes. For example, are you an Outcast? Then your job is to bring Card to House systems and dam the profit it's what Outcasts do.

6. Balance is CRUCIAL. ALL RP players had both Lawful and Unlawfull characters, flown when appropriate. Is the server full of Pirates? time to jump in the Navy char! All one or all the other is BROKEN RP.

7. Taking RP to the level of what guns and equipment roles can use is not necessary, but what ship you fly as your RP role IS. I spent a LOT of time in a Valk as RL Navy, it was a sub-optimal ship but it fit the RP and I was wearing the RP [N] tags.

Hope this helps, it's up to us all. Use what fits here, but THINK. The rewards are great if cooperation is the golden rule.

Fro

[Zebulon]

WW Frac and Frobozz.......Thanks.  Just as an observation - shame the New Systems dont have trade lanes - I hate to think what programming nightmares that could present!  What I do find encouraging is the quantity of new commodities available - it takes a lot of time to search these out.  I have found a few to be relatively decent trade routes, and I await to see how they turn out.   Good to know that what we are doing here is being read and appreciated.  I will digest what Frobozz and WW have stated and incorporate as much of the already listed excellent ideas into the Charter - the trick is to try and "Keep It Simple, Stupid" so that it doesnt get bogged down in "legality" issues.  As always Server Rules first RP rules second - thats a given and thanks for pointing it out.

Ok off to put pen to paper- keep it coming cos this is important...!  :D

[eagleone]

wow frac that was very nicly said, i know from our conversations that it is a real bear to keep the serve open and interesting to everyone. when we talk of changing thing in rp , or anything for that matter, it is a very slippery slop. go to far and you lose control, not far enough and it does not really seem like a change at  all. also the ideal that the admin dont have time is very understandable, that is why i said earliy on we dont want or need a admin or void to head this up but we do need a little help setting it up. you might say we dont need you to build the house we can do that but we need for you to give us a site to start biulding and your permission.

i feel that if the rp is directed by and  set up by the players it wil be owned by them, thus it will also up to them to make it work, and in the long run i think it will be more fun and satisfing for the ppl. the admin are swamped lately and i think we all can see that, so just give us the tools and i think we have enough players who care about the void and each other and having fun, that we can build something that fits server rules and still can improve rp. it looks like to me with the post we have had here that there are at least a good hand full ready to tackle the task.

[Fracture]

This has turned out to be one of the most productive threads / discussions that  I have read in many months.

I for one .. will bring the idea to the Admin Table of "minor server rule reform"...
The ideas being presented are not new gang ...
This wheel has been invented before.
The boil down for the Admin is "Do we make adjustments to the overall Server Rules ?"
Cyclical like and dislike of "How Things are Going" has been top topic for as long as I can recall.

The comment Fro made about separation of Server Op and RP Op is spot on.
(Frobozz is perfectly qualified to state his input as factual regarding Server Balance)

Server Rules are a small set of sane rules to allow "all ages" and "any skill level" to play here.
Server Rules also protect those who are forced unwillingly into Role Play by others .. ( RP Is Optional Here )
Role Play rules ( 2 actual rules, one for [X] and one for [R] ) are to warn the "other guy" of potential danger in game.

I can say with certainty that :
1) Mod changes take time on the part of those who are qualified.
2) The Mod changes are as well thought and tested as we can muster time to do.
3) The discovery of some changes that present a negative impact concerning Role Play
are for the most part un-intentional.
4) Other changes that are intended to Balance Role Play sides sometime overshoot their mark.
( This is an aspect of modding that can not be tested accurately .. It takes players playing roles to test )
5) Players here over the years have "Popularized" a new system or area by their own doing.
When I hear " It was better back when ..." or " I wish we still had ...." I can only wonder why that same player does not go see what else is out there.
6) The debate on what is the "right change" or the "wrong change" or "not to change" has raged for the entire lifetime of our modding here.
7) We encourage Role Play on the Void ..  But Role Play is still "In the Hands of the Role Players"

Scream On!
Frac

[aielman]

well what can i say?
after reading all through this...
any points i would have made have allready been covered and covered better then i could have done.
mainly by WW Zeb fract frozbozz i belive.


1 from frozboz i want to plug in particular is ----
" 6. Balance is CRUCIAL. ALL RP players had both Lawful and Unlawfull characters, flown when appropriate. Is the server full of Pirates? time to jump in the Navy char! All one or all the other is BROKEN RP. "

spot on. and while doing that, bare in mind -- play the char you are in or fighting against- not the person behind the chars.
(and yes i do have a evil char )

[Maverick]

Thanks Frac for shedding some light on what it's all about to be an Admin on a server. Most of us (like me) kinda realize that you guys have an exceptional busy and complex job on your hands, and that you even have a family life on the side (lol), but the truth is that guys like me really don't have a clue what it's all about. It's good to have this cleared up here. I will think twice next time I place an urgent call for an Admin response.

The more we appreciate to see an Admin face on this thread. Thanks for showing up and undertaking some action on this. Your input in this is greatly appreciated.

Thanks to Frobozz for pointing out the difficulties about RP. It again proofs that it is in fact a very difficult thing to do. If we are going to do this, we have to do a proper job and your post will do its part in assisting us.

Wow, again: what a response. This is great. But it's funny too. I started this thread trying to boost the RP. However, I thought I knew how to do it. And that is where I was wrong. After reading the last page of replies, I realize that I have just limited knowledge about the whole thing. This explains my lack of replies on this thread. The ideas and insights presented by some of you here, exceed mine by a million miles. I can only watch and read the replies, and afterwards come to the realization I cannot impossibly add to them.

Although I still want RP to play a bigger role then it has been doing until now, I know that I don't have the right knowledge to make it all happen. However, the great ideas posted here by you all CAN make it happen. This is why I will take a step back. The best I and many others with me can do is to keep observing this thread and integrate the guidelines provided in it into our RP. I really wish I could bring more to this topic. But my insights and knowledge about the matter are simply insufficient.

Thank again guys.

Carry on.

MAV

[Maverick]

Time for a *BUMP*

[Megiddo]

An interesting thread you have going on. I haven't been on the Void for a while, due to the fact that I haven't gotten the new mod to work. As a result I went elsewhere...

Anyhoo, about rp. The active player base needs to agree on the level of rp they want. Then the player base has to come to some sort of an agreement on the rp "codes of conduct". And lastly, the rp "codes of conduct" must be enforced with an iron fist. Period. The admin's word is law. Cry and whine all you want, it won't do you any good.

On the server I currently play on, rp and server rules are severely enforced. If a trader F1's when the pirate is taxing him, guess what? The pirate takes an ss, and the admin takes the traders money and cargo - all of it. This rather draconic approach gives everyone the clear message that paying the pirate is the cheaper option by far.

Another recent example: A pirate tried to exort money from a trader by claiming that the trader had broken a rule (a non-existing rule, btw). Well, the trader ss'ed this exchange and the pirate got banned for 7 days and got all his creds taken away.

As concerning the rules on the server that I play FL on: Most of them make sense (to me), but not all of them seem terribly logical. But man, irregardless of what you think of the established rules, heaven help you if you break them.

Like it or not, if you want working rp on this server, all rp rules (and all the server rules) must be enforced in a no-nonsense fashion. But that means more work for the Admins - which is a pretty thankless job, when you think about it.

If a player has a hissy fit and leaves because he was unable to conduct himself on the server, playing by house rules - so be it. You don't need him. The Void doesn't need him.

Peace.

[[BLK_LGN][X]Zeus]

[quote="Megiddo";p="172983"]If a player has a hissy fit and leaves because he was unable to conduct himself on the server, playing by house rules - so be it. You don't need him. The Void doesn't need him. [/quote]

I strongly agree with that.

[Zebulon]

Declaration of Role Play:

We the undersigned players undertake to conduct our players and various characters in the appropriate manner and promise to do so by signing this declaration:

We will:

1. Honour the server rules
2. Follow the instructions of the Server Guards (VOID) and the Server Admins (ADMIN)
3. Play the game according to the CHARTER's definitions of characters and character tags
4. Conduct ourselves in a polite and honourable manner when dealing with new and inexperienced players
5. Refer any problems to the resident VOID or ADMIN either by "chat" or via PM and Email where necessary
6. We will NOT take the law into our own hands unless directed to do so by someone in authority
7. We will refrain from flaming, pointless posts and spam (see point 1)
8. We will treat each and every character as a SEPARATE entity unless specificaly identified as being "one and the same" eg: VIC1[X]  &  VIC1[T]Trader
9. We will undertake to conduct ourselves in a manner that follows the "fun for all" principle embodied within the server that is The Void
10. We will have fun and hope that you do to......!

(ok - thats just for starters - Im still working on the Charter - this is just a rough draft of the RP declaration - those that have taken an interest in this please let me know what you think.  Constructive comments only please - stoopid remarks and idiocy will be deleted - still not fully wired into the www so might take a bit longer than I had hoped.  - Many Thanks - Zeb).