In-Game Tag Discussion

[Burn]

[quote="shonensan";p="187237"]One thing that admins must do? Get rid of frags...players don't want to die and surely they don't want to know how many times they were killed...this is why a lot of players are afraid to die in a game.

Next bring back godlikes and rampages even if you must get rid of flac and be less protected against cheaters ( i don't know what else does this flac ). Btw we have more cheaters now than when we had godlikes and everything else.
This is a good feature because encourage players to fight a lot to reach rampages and godlikes...so we will have more pvps and less players cratering and cruising away.

When the competition between players will be at an high level i think respect and the knowledge of how we all should play this game will be among all the players of the server. And new players will have good examples to follow instead of the mess that we see every time we connect in this period of the Void life.[/quote]

=D>  I totally agree with this and really am curious to see if Admins will take action on these matters (bravo shonen)
You can even keep the R tag as it will probably spare you of a full Inbox with complaints about Freelancers (non-tagged) opening fire/killing other players.

[Babieca]

[quote="V3N0M";p="187245"][quote="Babieca";p="187236"]  only those ppl that disagree Admin have their own opinions

if some ppl thinks like you said, maybe some others do the same when they agree you, just because they are your friends or whatever.[/quote]

Thats not what i was saying m8, i'm just sick of so many players here (on the Void) that constantly try there best to impress the admins, they make posts on the forums that say one thing, then in game they act different (unless theres an Admin in the same system), i'm surprised they don't have dysentry by now.
It was the same back in school days, remember "Teachers pets"? you know the ones always trying to impress the teachers and always getting bullied at break.

As for players just agreing with me just because there my friends ......... LOL
[/quote]


-About the friends, forget it  I use another analogy, it seems nobody understood what I mean, my fault: imagine that I said "just because sometimes to disagree with the admins is more "cool"....""

I know you are not those kind of persons that dont respect others opinions. And sure that those ppl you said are here but I really think they are a few. I understand very well your point of view, but think about this:

What was the new player's level protection here when we started? I started with 40 level, and it was ok. All  veterans started with 40 level,I.Maybe increasing level to 35 makes easier new player's live and it doesnt mean that anyone can kill others. Lot of ppl have up to level 35, and with a VHF and no credits you cant have less level than 35 level.

So, why talking about tags, moanings, RP or not RP. It worked for a long time. FL is an old game, and players dont play it a lot, and it is hard to find a good server, so keeping the new player interest is vary important, and rest of players, lets go to kill and stop moans

[Watchwolf]

OK, Shonen. After giving it a lot of thought and an entire sleepless night...  :^o ...I must say I agree with some of what you're saying. You hit it right on the chin when you say it's not the RP tags, it's how they are played. Right on!

I think maybe you're right about keeping some RP tags. Maybe [R] and [X]. But I still think a non-RP tag would stop a lot of moaning. I also think that players should just leave another who is obviously running a mission alone to do it. I mean, seriously... it's like if you're hunting and you come across two mating ducks and shoot them. Now you're the mighty hunter because you got two with one shot?

I'm not sure about trading, though. I see that one both ways. Trading is a big part of the game. For some people that's all they want to do, and it's not RP, it's their style of play, just like red-dot it a style of play. They should be left alone. But most fighters need to trade to make $ for their ships and ammo. (Except for those who miraculously become 90 level overnight.... but that's another thread.)

On the other hand, play between fighters and traders is also important, for both pirates and for navy who play their RP to stop smuggling. So there's a problem there. Trying to set it up for both is where the chance for abuse happens. If you let some traders wear non-RP tags then everyone will want them and there goes the RP between fighters and traders.

It's almost impossible to make everyone happy. No, I take it back; it IS impossible. But the problem is, the intent of the Void from the beginning is for it to be a place where anyone and everyone can find what they want here and have fun. So Admin has to try to find the balance, and that's what makes for the whiners and abuse of whatever is set up to make it balanced for everyone.

One thing is important to remember... there's players who just don't want to PvP at all, and there's players who do. If you shoot a player who has no intention of ever PvP'ing, he has a right to object. But if you kill a player who does PvP but isn't very good and whines when he dies... that's another thing. Then there's the decent player who is constantly raped coming through the gates by a 3-1 or more attack... he has a right to complain. If you can't even get through the gate, is that a fair fight? Is that player in his rights to object or is he moaning?

To me the answer is obvious. But to some players... not so, and there's another problem.

Again... A Question Of Balance. (Great CD, I might add, by the Moody Blues.)

And that's why we have this thread. The Boss is trying to make it a place where everyone can play and have fun their way.

Back to the point... should there be Non-RP tags? I still think so. But how are you going to keep it from being abused?

My head hurts.

In the end it relies on the integrity and respect of the players. Unfortunately. Because not everyone sees it the same way. If a player is really playing the [R] RP to the max, then he's going to hammer whoever he wants if he feels like it. Is that lack of respect or is that RP? OK, dock-raping is a bit over the top, but maybe the [R]'s who were there felt they were playing their RP? Or maybe they were using RP as an excuse to get cheap frags.

Who's to say.

Get rid of the frags. Don't bring back God-like and all that... the rapers will still do it to see their name in lights.

I was at the Gates last night, I saw the "RP" there. I played it... I got a few kills but mostly I got killed 3-1 or more. I didn't complain.. (Although I saw a bit of moaning by the killers as a matter of fact. What's the point in accusing a player of "lag" if you killed him anyway? What's the point in complaining about how he fights if you killed him anyway? What's the point in whining that a player uses bots and bats if you killed him anyway?)

I also saw a Server Guard who had to just sit there and watch it play out. Because what was happening isn't technically against the rules. Was it fair? Was it sporting? To some, no. To others, a challenge. To still others, fun.

Where's the balance?

Here's what I call irony: I saw an [R] player say in system chat for someone else to "stop" and leave him alone. I didn't see the play but I saw the chat... a rogue asking to be left alone. And he got it.

So why can't a rogue leave another player alone when he say's he's had enough or he just wants to get past the gate?

That's not about RP. That's about respect.

So in the end, you're right... it's not the tags it's how they are played.

OK, so we know the problem. Why can't we find the solution?

Respect.

Fair play.

Balance.

So Admin has to make rules to force fair play and balance.

And they get no respect for it.

Because no one likes to be told what to do.

But that's why there's speed limits and laws against violent crime. Not everyone has the same respect for others or a generally accepted sense of decency.

The game imitates RL.

Bummer, that.

[[IFU]Warchief]

Can we get back to making an effort to fix this and quit bashing people.

[Watchwolf]

OK. New updated proposal.

I'd like to say get rid of the RP tags, as I said before. That doesn't seem reasonable in light of a few things people brought up. It'd be an elegant solution but it would eliminate RP for those who don't want to be in a clan.

So, here's my idea:

Keep non-clan RP tags. [R], [X], [H], [M], [T]

Create a new Non-RP tag, [NRP]

Players who wear RP tags need to play that role. OK, reasonably.

Everyone not in a clan wears one of these. You can only wear one of these at a time. Therefore, you can't be a trader and be NRP at the same time. Sorry, traders, but you can't have it both ways.

Players found to be flying a fighter with an RP tag and a trader with an [NRP] tag will be considered as abusing the tag system.

Abuse of the tag system is a banning offense.

Admin and [VOID] enforce the tag rules, just like any other rules. These staff can and should check aliases if they think they see an abuse. We do it for other reasons, so there's no reason to not do it for this.

And eliminate the Frag count. It'd be nice to keep it, I have been in favor of keeping it since it first came up. But I have to say it causes more problems than it solves. So get rid of them.



In addition, I think Staff need to have more latitude in judgment as to whether or not players are abusing their RP. If they are camping at the gate and repeatedly raping a player coming through the gate and ignore pleas to stop will have to be dealt with. In the same way, players that "bait" fighters just to see them get in trouble for it need to be dealt with. And players who want to play it both ways with the RP tags need to be dealt with. Not necessarily banning. Me, I'll just start blowing them up til they decide it's not fun anymore. This way obvious abuses of RP can be dealt with.

Sure that sounds like a lot to keep track of, but in the end, players bring this upon themselves by not playing nice on their own. And staff bring it upon themselves by volunteering to be in that role. As far as i know we can always resign if we think it's too much to handle.

It certainly would be better if players took it upon themselves to police their own behaviour. But it's human nature to push it as far as you can. OK, but if you push it too far then you have to answer for it. Unfortunately, each staff member has a different way of dealing with it. We try to be consistent and talk about it among ourselves... policing our own behaviour... but everyone knows how each one handles things. Act accordingly. Hate to say that but if you're going to push the rules, better check to see which cop is on duty.



What do you think?

[[IFU]Warchief]

Now  that is a reasonable proposal. I would have no complaint with these changes.

[Watchwolf]

I'd like to add something here:

This proposal does not force players into role play. It gives players the opportunity to role play and to play it to the hilt.

It also gives players the opportunity to declare they have no interest in role play. NRP players would be protected from RP attacks. However, any player in an NRP ship believed to be asking for trouble would have to be dealt with accordingly. Such as hanging around where RP fighting is going on. Which is NOT the same as trying to dock at a planet where an RP fight is going on. Also, if a NRP player decides to fire on another player, his protection goes down the toilet. And he risks further problems.

It might sound like a lot of trouble. But the way i see it, listening to the "he said this, he did that " BS is more than just annoying, it takes the fun out of play for most and it takes the fun out of being in this Server Guard position as well.

That's right. Being [VOID] can be fun. I can only speak for myself, but I'm in this position becauseI was asked to be, maybe because I try to get along with most players, because I talk to them and try to see where they're coming from, because I care about the Void and want to see players here have fun, because I think the Void is something worth a little work and a little more time.

You've heard me say it before, it's not just a bunch of people flying make-believe ships and blowing each other up. It's a group of people from all around the world and all different backgrounds all with something in common... enjoying a good game that never seems to go out of style. And it's a group of people who have formed a community that stretches beyond borders, languages, ideology, race and gender to bring them together in a way we all wish our governments could. Sure we have differences, and sometimes they get in the way of fun and community spirit. But if we didn't care about any of that i don't think any of us would be here.

I'm not trying to take over the thread, I'm trying to take what people are saying in a discussion and put it into some sort of agreement that suits everyone in some way or another. Frankly, it's part of what I used to do for a living. Mediate discussions between people with opposing interests who had something in common and wanted to do something together.

Let's do something together. Then get out there and have fun.

Peace...

[Zebulon]

Im with you on that Wolf.  Personaly - if it aint broke dont fix it.  Its the attitude not the tags.  (Read the Red Crayon Post).
An Non RP tag would at least give a visual signal that this person is here to shoot stuff and not to RP.  They can go shoot other Non RP tagged players to their hearts content - no moans no whinges.  RP tags (including clans) have their RP enforced by VOIDS and ADMINS.  More work? Not Realy.  Familiarise yourself with the CLAN and Tag RPs and make the beggars stick to it..!

Push the rules - deal with the Duty Officer and pray its not me thats on duty if you choose to chance your arm - I have a low tollerance threshold for miscreants.

Now lets wait and see what the boss decides, shall we?

[-Wolfie-]

nice torchie!

tho 2 bad i wasnt there getting my @ss laughed off, RL has been sucking up my time, and well the free time i was playing EVE Online

[Torchie]

Here is something else to consider:

With the state of this game the way it is today, 400-600 people play freelancer a night, and thats a stretch, THAT'S on a good night.

There are 3 remaining top servers, Void, HC, Disco, I think because they are the biggest pipe servers.

I came here because my friends came here, I find that it is true, a LOT of people whine about being shot in this game.  So what?  They ain't really killing you, its a game, designed with guns.  

HC is a rockin server for me.  I love the aggressiveness of it, BUT unfortunately no RP there.

Disco, I lasted 3 days there, too many rules, and not enough pvp for me.

So, I found myself here, with a bit of RP.  I've made some friends here, which is always kind of cool, because FL is an odd game, I have friends I know I have made for life, in this game.  I've even met some of them in RL.

Tags that state 'I do not want to be shot' should be restricted to voids chat room, NOT on the server.  Doesn't matter if your tagged or not, being shot is a PART of this game.

People who don't want to RP, I'm okay with that, I fly away.  No one wants to RP 24/7, there are some nights I just like to chill out and have a few pvp's.  I been trying out lasers, yes I suck with them, but I have not given up yet.

The hardest thing in the world is to please ALL players, it's never going to happen.  You can't force RP, you can't force someone to not shoot you, but you have to abide by the 5 kill rule.  Rules are rules they are meant to be followed.  That in itself should sum up the problem with people whining about being shot, yet it does not.  I don't understand that, but again, I come from a time in FL when respawn wars rocked, and I still do have an edge when I play, because its where I come from.

So, with the state of this game today, please be very careful with what you do with this server.  Too many rules, people will leave, too many changes put people off.

It's not the tags that need to be changed, its the people that carry the tags, and their perspective of the game, mostly their attitude.  Me sitting here typing looking at t a screen, doesn't give me virtual balls, like some people have on the server.  They think its okay to treat people harshly, or be abusive to them, because that person can't get up and hit them with a lead pipe for good measure.

[Watchwolf]

You're right on, Torchie. Bullseye.

If players would abide by some sort of code of conduct and stick to it and everyone would agree and everyone behave the same way, then there'd be no need to have these threads let alone consider yet another restrictive rule. I'll be first to say we shouldn't need a rule and we shouldn't need another tag.

Unfortunately there are some here that screw it up for everyone else on both sides of the argument. Relentless attackers who will ignore a player who says he doesn't want to fight, pursue him when he tries to fly away, become abusive when he regens in order to last long enough to fly away or regens in order to have a ghost of a chance against 2 or 3 fighters who won't take no for an answer. Rules are an annoyance, too restrictive, they want to have their fun no matter if it spoils it for anyone else. New tags or enforced rules will only pi$$ them off and make for more aggressive behavior.

On the other hand, there are fighters who want it both ways. Fighting is ok as long as they win. They'll get some friends and attack others outnumbered... aka gang-bang, but when the tables are turned it's whine, whine, moan, screen-shot, complain. These players will bait the afore-mentiomned attackers into a fight, provoke them until these naturally aggressive fighters do something dumb ... or make it look like they did something dumb... in some sort of attempt at revenge. New tags will bolster their positions... "see what these other players have done, they've brought down restrictions on us because they can't behave themselves."

Then there's the players who just don't want to be shot, period. Some have stated all along they don't PvP and anyone who's been here a week knows that, but they get attacked anyway. It's like some people never visit the forums and have no idea a player like Burn doesn't PvP, or maybe they just don't care. NRP tags in the forum will be useless for them.

So what's a server to do?

I would dance the happy dance if the clouds were to part and a golden radiance beamed down on the Void and the angelic choir sang in perfect harmony as everyone gathered holding hands saying we see the light, let's all just get along and we'll all have a good time together.

But......


EDIT:

PS, when I think about it, especially in light of what you are saying, Torchie, the best thing we can do in the end is probably leave things just the way they are and try to deal with the problem children individually. Just like we're doing. And Admin will continue to be "sick and tired" of the same old complaints (from the same old few squeaky wheels) while the general population does their thing and wonder what all the fuss is about. In the end, I'd probably vote for that first.

[Torchie]

TBH WW, this stuff has been going on FL since I been involved in it.  Nothing new.

A relatively easy solution for the new people and people who don't want pvp is to make entire Liberty NO pvp.

That way they get started, that way if they don't wanna get shot, they don't leave Liberty.  Knowing once you leave Liberty, your gunna get shot, then its on them.

Those of us who fight, would RATHER stick pins in our eyes then hang out in Liberty space:)