Trade routes in new mod

[MODAX]

After some further analysis I believe I've narrowed down some of the specific problems.

The level system in its present form is somewhat flawed and ill-conceived for a multilayer environment. This is a fault with FL, not with void. Essentially "levels" in FL would more accurately be termed "Trade Coefficient", a variable to tally total financial assest. The problem with this is that trading, for now, though tedious, is hardly challenging or immersive. Once grossly efficient trade routes are established root repetition achieves the desired "LEVEL". Once a high enough "level" is obtained, the users basically gains access to all the highend assets. This is a problem because it requires very little commitment ingenuity and risk on the part of the trader, save the time invested, which is not so much considering that wealth is gained exponentially. The entire concept of total credits as a marker for progress defeats the concept of a multilayer leveled environment. There is no need or insentive to truly explore or engage in different behaviors. And thats not even mentioning donations from other players that can almost instantly achieve end game level for a user. The simple honest truth is that making money in FL is not at all exciting or dynamic, and requires very little skill to achieve success. Simply increasing the tax on everything would not improve gameplay as A. it would only increase the time it takes to progress without ADDING player interaction or content B. Would only give MORE incentive for people to find shortcut, ea. donations. Trade is an important aspect of FL, and done in the right way can be fun and rewarding, but only if done right.

Even becoming a trader should be a earned reward. Small ships should not at all even begin to compete with big trade ships at all for wealth generation. Specific trades should have specific trade lane licensees that are earned by increasing "trading merit" with certain factions. Trade routes that obligate a trader to use escorts in order to complete the trip. All of sirus should not be open and accessible to every user of the bat without putting any effort into participating with any factions. Nor should it be open to anyone who simply has the right amount of credits. At any moment, no matter how much credits a user has, there should always be content that a users is compelled to participate in to acquire. After all, really, after 20 millon why even bother trading any more as it is right now? Adding more tax would only stretch out the little content even thinner, creating greater disparity for people close in level, and reducing total user game play value in a given amount of time.

Consider how in WOW, total gold does not give a user access to all content. WOW compels the user to explore and engage in the game world, both PC and NPC to gain access to the content they want on a continuous basis. Even the trading in WOW follows this concept, even to continue producing materials for sale requires ever more exploring and interaction. This inspires participation. Its very similar to how a casino operates physiologically. It reward its clients with infrequent but extremely desirable rewards which compels clients to continue playing and investing in their casino game, even against their own interest! The goals stops being making money per say, the money becomes simply fuel to get where one wants.

I purpose that a great deal of content not be simply buy able, but earned, through numbers of faction members killed, people saved, rare items found, etc. etc. As for trading in and of itself, rewards should be given for establishing good lanes, speed of delivery, volume of continuous GUP (gross universal product) etc. etc. This would also add to RP as engaging in illegal activities could result in fortifture of property. Also consider oblivion, where users typical have a "house" where they store some of the "cool" stuff they collect but otherwise cannot carry. This promotes users to explore for more stuff simply out of the "collectors urge". Right now, there is no incentive to "collect" as in void users easily can be killed and there goes all the hard earned loot. The collectors dirve is a mayor factor in replayability, as you always want that one next item missing in the set, another great concept. Having bonuses based on using complete set also I believe compels users to explore for these unique sets.

COD4 i think is also a good marker for a good multilayer experience, and it's a shooter similar to void. A good deal of effort is put into all those small "special skill unlocks" to get that cool looking skin on that gun, or that other scope etc. etc. its just not a race to see how many total kills you can accumulate. Ranks feel earned, and the special items and designations give a sense of presence and presitence within the game universe. In the PVP nature of void I believe the COD4 would be fit nicely. Unlocking new abilities, units, and assets by achieving certain number of kills or type of kills would be awesome.

To summarize, I believe the entire concept of trading should be expanded from simply going to point a to point b. Special trade merits should be earned for any number of actions like frist trades in a new zone, long distance haul, average safe delivery rating, rare artifact finding and selling, sales vs. other factions, etc. etc.

Just some ideas and observations.

[geromix]

[quote="MODAX";p="206888"]After some further analysis I believe I've narrowed down some of the specific problems.

The level system in its present form is somewhat flawed and ill-conceived for a multilayer environment. This is a fault with FL, not with void. Essentially "levels" in FL would more accurately be termed "Trade Coefficient", a variable to tally total financial assest. The problem with this is that trading, for now, though tedious, is hardly challenging or immersive. Once grossly efficient trade routes are established root repetition achieves the desired "LEVEL". Once a high enough "level" is obtained, the users basically gains access to all the highend assets. This is a problem because it requires very little commitment ingenuity and risk on the part of the trader, save the time invested, which is not so much considering that wealth is gained exponentially. The entire concept of total credits as a marker for progress defeats the concept of a multilayer leveled environment. There is no need or insentive to truly explore or engage in different behaviors. And thats not even mentioning donations from other players that can almost instantly achieve end game level for a user. The simple honest truth is that making money in FL is not at all exciting or dynamic, and requires very little skill to achieve success. Simply increasing the tax on everything would not improve gameplay as A. it would only increase the time it takes to progress without ADDING player interaction or content B. Would only give MORE incentive for people to find shortcut, ea. donations. Trade is an important aspect of FL, and done in the right way can be fun and rewarding, but only if done right.

Even becoming a trader should be a earned reward. Small ships should not at all even begin to compete with big trade ships at all for wealth generation. Specific trades should have specific trade lane licensees that are earned by increasing "trading merit" with certain factions. Trade routes that obligate a trader to use escorts in order to complete the trip. All of sirus should not be open and accessible to every user of the bat without putting any effort into participating with any factions. Nor should it be open to anyone who simply has the right amount of credits. At any moment, no matter how much credits a user has, there should always be content that a users is compelled to participate in to acquire. After all, really, after 20 millon why even bother trading any more as it is right now? Adding more tax would only stretch out the little content even thinner, creating greater disparity for people close in level, and reducing total user game play value in a given amount of time.

Consider how in WOW, total gold does not give a user access to all content. WOW compels the user to explore and engage in the game world, both PC and NPC to gain access to the content they want on a continuous basis. Even the trading in WOW follows this concept, even to continue producing materials for sale requires ever more exploring and interaction. This inspires participation. Its very similar to how a casino operates physiologically. It reward its clients with infrequent but extremely desirable rewards which compels clients to continue playing and investing in their casino game, even against their own interest! The goals stops being making money per say, the money becomes simply fuel to get where one wants.

I purpose that a great deal of content not be simply buy able, but earned, through numbers of faction members killed, people saved, rare items found, etc. etc. As for trading in and of itself, rewards should be given for establishing good lanes, speed of delivery, volume of continuous GUP (gross universal product) etc. etc. This would also add to RP as engaging in illegal activities could result in fortifture of property. Also consider oblivion, where users typical have a "house" where they store some of the "cool" stuff they collect but otherwise cannot carry. This promotes users to explore for more stuff simply out of the "collectors urge". Right now, there is no incentive to "collect" as in void users easily can be killed and there goes all the hard earned loot. The collectors dirve is a mayor factor in replayability, as you always want that one next item missing in the set, another great concept. Having bonuses based on using complete set also I believe compels users to explore for these unique sets.

COD4 i think is also a good marker for a good multilayer experience, and it's a shooter similar to void. A good deal of effort is put into all those small "special skill unlocks" to get that cool looking skin on that gun, or that other scope etc. etc. its just not a race to see how many total kills you can accumulate. Ranks feel earned, and the special items and designations give a sense of presence and presitence within the game universe. In the PVP nature of void I believe the COD4 would be fit nicely. Unlocking new abilities, units, and assets by achieving certain number of kills or type of kills would be awesome.

To summarize, I believe the entire concept of trading should be expanded from simply going to point a to point b. Special trade merits should be earned for any number of actions like frist trades in a new zone, long distance haul, average safe delivery rating, rare artifact finding and selling, sales vs. other factions, etc. etc.

Just some ideas and observations.[/quote]

Good ideas,but i don't know this can be worked out.

It sounds far too complicated and as Zeb said highly ambitious.There is also the usual argument-"Void is a shooter server,RP light etc"

But there is another argument-
People trade just enough to set up their fighter chars.There are very few "genuine" traders.Only a handful,only about a dozen genuine traders exist.And that has been the way since Void has been set up.

Basically you would be doing all what u said above for just a dozen guys not to forget the amount of coding work that needs to be done.FL has it limitations.Arguably it might lead to an increase in trading but i believe it would be 'marginal' at best.

But i agree that an "economy" needs to be set up.

There was an economy here in Void earlier,what nomad said is right-
Traders trade
Pirates chase them and tax them.
Mercenaries are hired.Hunters flourish.
Throw in the evil and rogues.
And finally where there is evil there would be law enforcers.
(In between u can add the Order and Nomads)

The second part where pirates come into play is the 'weak link',due to which every other RPs suffers particularly that of mercenaries and hunters.

Trading is incomplete without piracy and vice versa.

I have got a simpler solution-

-Good traders don't judge a trade route solely on what i call 'simple profit'.
They use a different tool to measure to measure the 'real profit' which is what FL Companion uses- Divide profit by time spent on trading.(Profit/Time) This ratio is really important.

Lest say u have 2 routes,one is short and the other is long.
Short route- U get $500 in one trip that takes 5 mins.[Less profit]
Profit/Time=500/5= $100 per minute.

Long route-U get $5000 in one trip that takes 50 mins.[More profit]
Profit/Time=5000/50= $100 per minute.

It still is same!

Most routes in Void are like that,they have almost similar ratios of Profit/Time.Its a narrow band.

The point is that is NOT how it should be!
The mod MUST show a bias towards long routes by increasing the Profit/Time ratio in favor of Long Routes the reason being-
>Greater risk-Long routes put u in space for longer period of time making u more vulnerable to npcs,players etc.

>Long routes put trader in space for more longer periods of time in 1 single trip this makes sure the possibility of RP interaction is more.
Trade lanes are great ways for pirates to attack a trader.

Shorter routes with great Profit/Time ratio should be discouraged like the one in Alpha-it makes u rich too quickly etc.

Along with this we need Trains or big cargoes which have huge cargo space.
A train should be like a BS very slow to turn around but it should not have firepower of BS.

The Train should be very vulnerable like a sitting duck but it should have big cargo space.

When u couple a train with a long trade route with excellent Profit/Time ratio what do u get?

-The chance for convoys to happen as a  train would NEED escorts/mercenaries etc.Due to the fact that a Train has a large cargo space,a team of pirates if it attacks the convoy/train it could get a good chance of making a big profit by looting the entire cargo.(the tax rule of piracy of 200k should be abolished)

The Trains like BS can dock only on planets with Ports this will 'regulate' the usage of trains.
It would also make the long routes worth all the trouble because of huge cargo space.

I think this can make things much more interesting in Void.

-Geromix

[BabaRoga]

Nice Discussion here!

The point is that is NOT how it should be!
The mod MUST show a bias towards long routes by increasing the Profit/Time ratio in favor of Long Routes the reason being-
>Greater risk-Long routes put u in space for longer period of time making u more vulnerable to npcs,players etc.

I agree, that  was an excellent approach!

But there is another argument-
People trade just enough to set up their fighter chars.There are very few "genuine" traders.Only a handful,only about a dozen genuine traders exist.And that has been the way since Void has been set up.

[align=justify]I disagree here. This attitude is only possibile at dead and annoying servers. If you want exciting clan wars or lot pvps you  should  look for   lot money  for ammo to spend for. When I took part, many time in such events, I have lost too much credits so I had to trade. I will not mention an occasion that wars can last too long.

From the other hand, I believe that many of us would like trading more if we get better game balance for them. And, something more important, better trade balance in the game  ---->  more better  PvPs and  RPs will be.[/align]

[Hash]

Got something to add here: and what about mining!?, Freelancer has the possibilty of mining and it's been forgotten. We all know why..., you need about 2 weeks to fill up an AT and it's kinda boring.
I think we should become more material per rock, I mean, 10-20 pieces instead of only 1. The chances of that water, gold or whatever come are ok, but the quantitties are too low. Idk..., it's there and we don't use it just because of the time you have to invest to have your ship full. And it won't make server to have much more lag!

[geromix]

[quote="Hash";p="206976"]Got something to add here: and what about mining!?, Freelancer has the possibilty of mining and it's been forgotten. We all know why..., you need about 2 weeks to fill up an AT and it's kinda boring.
I think we should become more material per rock, I mean, 10-20 pieces instead of only 1. The chances of that water, gold or whatever come are ok, but the quantitties are too low. Idk..., it's there and we don't use it just because of the time you have to invest to have your ship full. And it won't make server to have much more lag! [/quote]

Well it if for precisely this reason why i would say the Traders and Corps Discussion group should be revived.

I would say a special ship for mining won't be bad.Big cargo space,lots of hull armour for radiation filled mine-fields etc.

Quantities need to be increased and the corresponding profits should be high comparable to trading.

Miners again can be sitting ducks and they would need protection.

-Geromix

[mightybean]

Yeah I agree, cargo that has been mined should sell for way more. It could be considered "pure" and "uncontaminated" for instance, instead of the stuff you buy from stations that has been sitting around for a while going mouldy in someones hull.

Mining is very fun, but it's just not worth it at this current stage.

[=ESF=XENON]

[quote="shonensan";p="207046"]I win tournaments and earn money...easier than that[/quote]

There is still others who play here , others who still find trading a very major role play in Freelancer.
Constructive posts is very much Appreciated - Everyone Needs Cash to carry on in this game , and remember that everybody is not a very skilled player who can beat the most skilled players here and win Events so making cash via Events is not really available for the newbies - Does they have to leave then ? or try trading and have fun ?

On Topic - i Believe that Dynamic Economy Should Either END or CHANGE to better style
A Better style that helps the players to find Cash in a Semi-Easy way , not full Easy.
it's all about having some cash so you can go on playing in sirius.

Regards,
XENON

[Live-Evil]

I think there should be a few set multi system trade routs (ex: Diamonds from New Tokyo to New Berlin, Nibonium from the Ring to New Tokyo)
A few unchangeing high profit trade routes will get traders on a nice set path which will make pirate rp easier, rogue rp more fun, and maybe give these Navy rp people something to do.

[Zebulon]

Want to relax - chill out - take out some NPCs and sit back and make a bit of dosh off the sweat of your own brow?
Mining - thats the answer.... go howk some diamonds out of the rocks in Dresden.... go looking for exotic minerals in dangerous places?....  yep all part of the Big Picture that is the VOID.  Not everyone is a Combat Junky.  Lets see what the Dev Team come up with...

[geromix]

@Baba Roga-

Can you change the name of this topic and call it "Trade & Mining Brainstorming Discussion" or something like that as the thread has gone into new territory.

I have a idea,most of these discussions end up nowhere and therefore i was thinking of compiling all the ideas in this thread after thorough debate on this and then get it endorsed by the clans around here or at least the prominent traders/members of Void and then submit it to the Dev Team,they will then have something to work upon,something that is concrete.

The result would be a 'List of Suggestions/Ideas To Improve Trading & Mining', endorsed by as many members of Void who will endorse this,maybe entire clans can endorse it in the form of a 'signature campaign' and then finally submit it to the Dev Team or mod-makers.

Many heads would go into this with their ideas etc,and it would be the best form of feedback on mod regarding trading and mining and the result would be a  direction to the mod.

What do you think?

[Zebulon]

I am not certain yet what has been decided.  I suspect that we will not want to loose many of the advances made  - the 3D system problem will be addressed one way or the other and trade lanes are something to be hoped for in a 2D environment.  We will wait and see.  The more we can spread people through out our virtual galaxy the more fun the chase / hunt / fight / rob will become - gets folks away from Sparta and the "Kiss and Tell" Rock......! It would also help to make the trading a lot less tedious.

Much is happening - Wait and See... in the meantime, keep playing!

[Zebulon]

:-< ........ Y'all know my stance on the whole F1 stuff pulled by traders.  If ANYONE F1's during combat they get fined.  We know the deal with people pulling this stunt.  I catch or get evidence of someone pulling this nonsense then the hammer will fall.  
Thanks for your constructive support. Improving the trading is something that is being discussed.  We are trying to iron out the short lucrative "bugged" runs and replace them with something more worthy of the VOID.

[McViper]

well it is an old topic but i want to answer :
personally i just hate trading coz i'm lazy
i don't undertsand that in same time for trading and same cargo i have took time to trade till i had 150millions in anither mod the BSG one...
1-the AT is boring
2-piracy is dead everyone fights in sparta and it makes an epic lag
3-v nice gero, 200k tax must be ABOLISHED !!! of coruse when we see the profit in void in the NB route and the ridicoulous tax ! 11mil / 200k....that's very loow !!
4-create new ships and guns, it will make traders bring money for discovering shis and expansive guns
5-abolish the "normal" setups, ffs i always see same setups, lasers or nirvanas or anhilators ! (or some more), so i rly think we shud create 20 new ships and not poor ones like tomahawk, true ones like viper and wa1 !
6-same for guns, create 20 more ! it will make pvp's more fun and making traders wanna trade to buy those guns
7-abolish this annoying 3D sys situation by, like zeb said, creating trade lanes....plus those ones must have SPECIAL guns and ship which we can't find anywhere ! it will increase void fun
8-get rid of this quick way NY -> sparta, make it more long ! ---> NB route will be harder.
9-create a dynamic economy like HHC, they change routes every 30mins....===> NO ROUTE WILL BE THE SAME PROFITABLE ALL THE DAY. then we can create mooore trade routes==> piracy revived.
10-increase ships and capital ships prices to minimum 12 millions...and guns more than 1 million
11-create a new kind of RP : the police against smuggling....we r bored to see good side always fighting evils only..boring routine.
12-this police against smuggling will be posted on important points of routes, ofc we must create black market goods too !
13-those BMG's must be the most profitable
14-and create new ships and traders and guns that's the most important !!! (repeating that for the second time)
15-an original idea, that to change guns power every day or every week (not every 30 mins coz it can bores v much)...just as the goods for trading !---> this will make players to buy weps = deposing money, => trading like hell and that will make police smuggling alive(i know this idea is a bit hard to put on the mod...it can has bad consequences that i know)


with this trading will see a new day===> alll server will have a refresh of sparta and the boring routes and setups

Best Regards
McViper